Ask the Seven Scholars the Future – The World From Today
Corona 19 makes civilization shudder at once. To break through the chaos, we want to examine today’s problems with the world minds. To diagnose the problem that has spread to the political and ethical crisis, seven people, including Professor Jang Ha-jun, Professor Jeremy Rifkin of The University of Cambridge, Dr. Bandana Shiba of India, and Professor Kate Pickt of York University, who is responsible for examining the truth of western-centered industrial civilization, and Martha Nusbaum, a professor at the University of Chicago, and Kate Pickt, professor of public health, are among the seven who are trying to diagnose the current situation that has spread to the political and ethical crisis.
■”Corona reveals neoliberal weakness escaping risk to weak for efficiency”
‘Ask seven scholars for a sustainable future… The first meeting of the World today was discussed with Professor Zhang Ha-jun about economic policies to overcome the crisis. Last month, the 25th was conducted in a video interview on the Internet.
Ahn Hee-kyung = Why is the virus spreading to the global world and the economic crisis so far?
Zhang Hajun = Before, it was a shock to one part, mainly because of the twisting of finance or the rise in oil prices, and this time the production, consumption, and distribution sectors were all affected. And in the last 30-40 years, globalization has brought the world into the supply chain. When Corona19 paralyzed the Chinese economy, car factories in South Korea and Germany were closed. I can’t get parts from China. This is because the economic system is structured around efficiency, especially short-term efficiency, rather than safety or flexibility. Now that’s where the weakness escaping.
Inside = The root reason why we went around the world and went through eight steps to get one product out and let the market roll?
Zhang = You have to make anything cheapest. There’s something that the British people were worried about when they were arguing about Brexit. European car factories made parts from the UK and sent them to Belgium, where they put them in Germany, put larger parts in Germany, and sent them back to the UK, where they would go to France in another process, and they were concerned that the companies in the process would leave the UK if they left the European Union. There’s a problem that the economic system is trying to make it so cheap, and we can’t keep it up if we don’t go around the world.
Don’t = Corona crisis will change the way it has so far been? The prospect that globalization will end and nationalism will bring outsourced companies to their home countries.
Chapter = It may be a few decades away, but it’s not easy at the moment. The United States suddenly has no imports. It’s not a day to make clothes in LA and iPhone in San Francisco. I think the word “globalization is over” is an exaggeration. But we need to figure out what’s vulnerability and what’s going well and use it as an opportunity to create a better society. There is another deadly weakness of neoliberalism. To increase efficiency, we’re putting all the risks to the underdog. It’s called Geek Economy, but the reality is that it legally deprives workers of their rights by making them self-made providers. In most countries, they cannot use sick leave. He was vulnerable to infectious diseases to work, and he left the disease to spread.
If it were like an exhibition, I thought it would be a rear of the place where people with assets to endure. For the middle class, the evening came.
Low-wage workers such as delivery and care
Built on everyone’s survival
I know i’ve been doing essential labor
‘Treatment’ should be different after crisis
Increase social costs such as unemployment, suicide, etc.
Like the United States, it’s left fired,
Rather than just giving money in the short term
Employment maintenance, salary preservation efficiency
Chapter = War, you’re a mix of front and rear. In poor countries, poor people make money when they go outside. You may be sick or not, but if you don’t work, you’re sure to starve. It’s ahead. There are almost no face-to-face service sectors. But when you close the door because you can’t, you’ll be spoilt for help, and you’re in a dilemma. You have to think about how to protect them.
Inside = Support measures are coming out in ways like never before in other countries. The U.S. also provides two-month fees to the self-employed and $1,200 per adult. California also offers $500 to illegal aliens. Can this prevent the impact on the economy? Or would you pee on frozen feet?
Zhang = It’s an emergency, so it’s right to have cash. The question is how willing to keep it. There’s a big difference between giving away a European-style way of not getting fired, and giving money to everyone while leaving the American way of firing. From at least the Second World War to the 1970s, many countries’ main policy objectives were full employment. The unemployment trauma of the Great Depression caused the people to stabilize their employment, and the state followed, and the new liberalism weakened both employment stability and labor rights. In the past six weeks, the United States has received 30 million new unemployment insurance applicants. This is an underestimated number compared to Europe. The U.S. has a high requirement to apply. Even if it were all 30 million people, the U.S. workforce was 165 million, which is 18 percent, and the unemployment rate was 4 percent before Corona 19. Conservatives hold on to the unemployment rate of 30% after a month, even if only three million people a week. It’s the Great Depression. It’s more efficient to keep employment and preserve salaries than to pay for it.
No = Unemployment is more socially expensive.
Zhang = Yes, it’s a psychological blow. The longer the unemployment period, the more difficult it is to re-employ the skills that i had. In a company, it’s a huge cost to train new people. I don’t understand how this state is going to go for two years, and how it’s going to be solved. What would you do if you give me money right now, but i don’t?
It seems to be a structure that encourages suicide even more.
Zhang = 50,000 people in the U.S. die from opioid addiction every year. As the unemployed grow and are more frustrated with the difficulty of eating and living, there will be more people who eat, drink alcohol, get sick or die. Korea is also the number one suicide rate in the world. By the mid-1990s, our country was below the OECD average.
Ahn = Sociologists say it’s dangerous to make assumptions about why suicide surges, but the distinct trend comes from rapid social values. There’s a tendency to choose to commit suicide when your value crashes. I think it’s connected to things like collective dismissal, where our presence collapses.
Zhang = I think the reason for the surge in suicides in our country is because of the reduced employment stability and job insecurity under the IMF system. In an increasingly individualised social structure, the welfare system has not developed accordingly, and the way care has been done in the large family system has been dismantled. We’ve done a great job of getting corona 19, and we’re not proud of it, we need to think about why there are so many suicides.
Don’t you see the entire industrial system tend to change?
Chapter = There’s something people have realized in this crisis. In the United States, essential-employees and key-workers in the UK are the essential labor that is fundamental to everyone’s survival. Medical staff, food shop staff, delivery workers, people who work in nursing home. This includes many workers who have worked on low wages. These words come out of lockdown. “Now i can live without an investment banker, but I can’t live without them!” At the end of this crisis, the treatment of low-paid workers in these areas may change. Even in the same industry, there may be areas where production changes depending on how they are reorganized. But it’s hard to predict this in the present state. You see a pattern as you pass by.
Ahn = The most low-paid part of the job is caring labor. Can we not embrace local government or the public domain?
Spending national taxes on corporations
Do not prevent more taxes, sick leave
Reduce and protect non-regular jobs, etc.
You have to put a lot of support conditions on
Korea, the highest level of financial health
Increase disbursement of disaster support, unemployment insurance
If the government keeps the demand in place,
Corporate revenue… The economy is bigger
Zhang = Many countries are nationalizing care occupations such as nursing facilities. In the UK, most of the health care is state-owned. In our sense, they’re civil servants. Alternatively, you can strengthen regulations to improve working conditions. By reducing the number of children in the nursery and the number of children who can be cared for by teachers, or by introducing regulations that reduce the number of elderly people who care for them in nursing home, there will be a lot of jobs. In this case, the company has to bear it, and the consumer has to bear it, so i don’t want to do it all the time. Regulation seems to be very bad when it comes to it, but in reality, companies and societies adapt harmoniously. In the old days, when we were asked to get rid of child labor in the United States and The United Kingdom, there was a fierce backlash against the abolition of slavery in the United States. The economy is ruined. I wasn’t screwed at that time. There is a logic of the market, but we can change it because it is political logic after all. You have to change it if you need it.
Ahn = What are the ideas that the government can institutionally build a safety net?
Zhang : I think what we’ve seen this time is that people in countries with good welfare systems can suffer less and be safer. For example, if you’re in the United States, you’re constantly protesting to loosen the lockdown. There are people who simply interpret this as racism, nationalism, or Trump supporters, but if they don’t open a shop and go on the road, they’re supported by people who can’t eat. In Europe, this movement is not so strong. There are many countries that guarantee basic living.
It’s important to create a safety net, such as a security system, and job security, rather than approaching it with a political frame of money or life.
Chapter = Yes. It’s a complex issue, but it’s a combination of long-term and short-term measures. We need to start improving the system by thinking about why vulnerable people suffer as much as cash, and why it’s hard to control the disease. Corona19 virus may go two years or three or four years, so you have to be prepared for the long term. In the future, there will be more and more disasters caused by climate change.
In addition to supporting Asiana Airlines in the form of a limit loan that can be used as a negative bank book, Korean Air also decided to provide KRW 1.2trillion. Some of the workers are supported, but they are asked to nationalize if they are going to run according to the same logic.
Zhang = It’s a support for the people’s taxes, so we can nationalize it, or we have to provide conditions for making the people better, even if they don’t. ‘Pay more taxes and work together to create a welfare state. Let’s strengthen labor rights. Reduce non-regular jobs as much as possible so that they can work safely. Get sick and get rid of the environment where you have to work if you’re sick. Invest more in green technology…’ There are many conditions that can be attached. The idea has become capital-centric as society comes to the point where it values capital gains too much. When the IMF supports a country with economic problems, how many conditions do you put on it? Give the central bank independence, decentralize it, it’s not funny. But when companies get money, they give it without a single condition. What is that?
On April 22nd, the President announced that he would make a New Deal for South Korea. The next day, cement stock surged.
Zhang = In the 1930s, we thought only of the New Deal, and we predicted that we would build a dam and clean the way, so cement prices went up. It’s an old-fashioned idea to think of the New Deal as a way to clean the way and build a dam. It’s hard to comment because i don’t know exactly what the New Deal is in Korea. I don’t think the government itself has yet to figure out a sophisticated plan. Even if you model the New Deal in the United States, there’s something you need to know. There was a New Deal twice. As soon as President Roosevelt was elected, the First New Deal was a development of the Tennessee River basin in 1933, which paved the way and built a dam. The second New Deal of 1935 was reformof the system. The Wagner Act was enacted to strengthen union rights, and the Social Security Act was enacted to create a social security system. If we follow the real United States, we have to do a New Deal to reform the system.
I don’t = I give money from the local government now, and the central government gives me money. A lot of people say, ‘Now it’s negative growth, so what happens to our kids when you’ve made all the money? Can our generation use it? The officials at the base are not like breeding gods.
■”I do not be scared of negative growth… Change the system well and improve the quality of life if welfare is good”
Zhang = wrong economic logic. If you’re wrong about spending money on debt, you shouldn’t take out a student loan to go to college, and you shouldn’t do business with your debts. If you pay off your debts, or if you earn more later, why not pay your debt? If the government borrows money to provide disaster subsidies in the short term, raises unemployment insurance, and maintains demand, companies can make money from it. When demand completely collapses, companies are more screwed. If the government borrows money to invest in a place where the economy is more productive, it will make our economy bigger in the long run. People who say they shouldn’t borrow money now should say that companies should buy without debt. What readers should know is that Korea is a very well-financed country. It has a debt-to-GDP ratio of about 40%, which is the lowest in the world. The lowest countries are Nordic countries such as Sweden, Denmark and Norway, with between 35 and 40% and South Korea the second lowest. And these nordic countries with the most healthy finances are the most well-funded countries in the world. Good welfare doesn’t mean that your finances are stale. The U.S. is living in fiscal health on a daily day, but the percentage of government bonds as a percentage of GDP is well over 100%.
N= Is welfare stable because the nordic economy is generally stable?
Zhang = We’re wrong with a basic understanding of welfare. I think it’s about getting money from people who have money and giving them to the poor. But Nordic welfare is the right to buy social insurance. It’s a joint purchase of health insurance, education insurance, and pension insurance. The United States says it spends less on welfare, but it’s one of the highest welfare countries in the world. A lot of it is personal spending. If you look at public spending, countries like France, Finland, and Sweden spend 30 percent of their national income, and the U.S. only spends 20 percent, so the U.S. doesn’t spend welfare. However, the sum of the welfare expenditures spent by individuals is the second most popular in Finland. Nevertheless, the health insurance system is wrong, and it’s twice as good as any other country, and it’s the lowest health indicator in the developed world.
Social Welfare Poor America
“Lift ing containment” protests
Europe guarantees basic living
This move is not strong
For the time being, it’s a low-growth era.
Developed countries don’t need to grow
‘How fair do you share’
I need to weigh the quality of growth
The psychological threshold for the hospital is high because it is private insurance, and the corona 19 damage seems to be great at this time.
Chapter = That’s a big problem. So to speak, welfare is Wal-Mart logic. Which one hospital would go to a pharmaceutical company and ask for 10,000 diabetic drugs and the government would get a better price for 7 million diabetics? You’re going to buy a joint purchase to lower the price. I’m not sure how i’m going to talk about the very low logic that children suffer later if they spend money now, and that’s what’s being eaten by the majority. Inequality makes it a cruel society.
I’ve spent more than 5 years growing low. Now, negative growth seems to be the default. China also announced a negative 6% in the last quarter. We are highly dependent on Trade with China, but what strategy should we use?
Chapter = In the long run, we’ll see a lot of growth in the long run. Because the shock came. In the neoliberal system, we’ve been crying out for growth and growth, but it’s not that good. Rather, it’s worse than the old Keynesian era. I think growth is important for backward countries, but developed countries are different. Our country should now be included in developed countries. Developed countries no longer need to grow. It’s good not to grow because of climate change. The problem is the quality of growth. It’s about how fair it is to grow. If the goal of the economy is to make the whole nation comfortable and meaningful, growth is a means. As you grow, it’s easy to grow and share, and you’ll be able to achieve your goals. The problem is that in the neoliberal system, even if it grows, the fruit is concentrated only on the upper classes. It doesn’t mean much to the average people. There was also a problem with how we counted growth figures. In Brazil, no matter how much money you make by destroying the Amazon jungle and growing cattle and exporting beef, the drought has ruined farming.
Don’t you think the problem doesn’t change when it’s not = negative growth? The economy is losing momentum. Can you live with a minus?
Zhang = Minus is a poor average standard of living, so it’s hard to cope. Environmentalists argue that reverse growth is a negative growth for developed countries. I think it’s not a problem in itself, but how negative growth comes out. This time, corona 19 is rocking down, and a lot of people don’t eat more than ever before. It means that you can eat the same thing even if you produce less food. If clothing is fast fashion, and clothes that are not worn and discarded are 10%, then global clothing production is reduced by 10% Quality can’t be related. We need to take a comprehensive look at how the negative struck, how well the results are divided, and how sustainable they are. Right now the number itself is minus 6, minus 3, this doesn’t matter. Even if we don’t grow, we can change the system and improve welfare, which will improve the quality of people’s lives.
I’d like to ask an idealistic question. Dr. Ariyaratne, the sri lankan leader I interviewed in 2014, emphasized Gandhi’s teachings. ‘The last is the first’. It’s the value that everyone on top of it benefits when the last person in our society is safe. Do you think it can be accepted as economic policy?
Chapter = Logic is the same argument as the theory of justice of American political philosopher John Rawls. Rolls said the system that provides the best environment for the worst people is the most just system. Philosophically, it’s a straight-forward interpretation of what to do. I think it’s a policy where everyone enjoys basic rights, doesn’t starve, when they’re sick, they don’t have to worry about money, they can go to the hospital, and to some level they can be educated. Whether it’s childcare, higher education, old age, or how society buys from such areas that we often think we should buy insurance, and we make the most of our ability and effort, regardless of class, gender, or region, we can create the society that Ariyaratne and Rolls want.
The president’s support is high in the Corona 19, a superior example. The general election sparked a huge ruling party. The government and the Democrats have a time to do it. What if you want to be asked to do it?
I’m proud of Korea’s ‘disaster prevention’
1st suicide rate, humiliation such as low birth rate
Shout out sound finances with hands laid
Five years later, the stigma will remain the same
From welfare, education, tax reform
To improve labor by strengthening regulations
Corona overcomes a good experience
When to work together to make great reforms
Zhang = I’m very proud of Korea this time. Corona 19 was the best in the world. But there are so many world’s best records that are embarrassing to us. The suicide rate is number one, not a simple thing to look at. Corona19 is not going to die, is it okay to die without hope for the future? The birth rate is almost the lowest in the world, and the gender pay gap is the highest in the OECD. It’s a country where young people are frustrated and want to emigrate. You have to do something good, but you can’t cover up what you didn’t do well. I’ve done a great job, and i’ve got to make big reforms when I realize that if I can do big things, I can do a lot of work. We need to make sure that the welfare system is properly adopted, that the education system is improved as fair as possible, and that we can create solidarity while acknowledging people’s efforts to be as equitable as possible. What if the worries were to be self-exclaimed that Corona 19 did well, and continued to shout sound finance and do it the way it used to be? If we do nothing now, five years after the Corona19 crisis, we’re going to be one of the highest suicide rates, the lowest birth rate, the highest gender pay gap, and that pathetic country. It must be replaced without it. Ahn Hee-kyung Funny Journalist
The next scholar is Jeremy Rifkin
After Corona 19, questions and expectations about what new normal (new standard) will come are growing. But a new order will not come by itself. Just as the problems accumulated yesterday destroy edits today in the Corona19 crisis, the suffering of today can destroy tomorrow. We want to continue the process of questioning and boldness in order to avoid a new order that can be cruel. The next session is the New Deal, which was shared with Jeremy Rifkin in the Corona 19 crisis.
▶Professor Zhang Ha-jun
Zhang Ha-jun, 55, is a professor of economics at the University of Cambridge, UK. In 2003, he gained a reputation as a global economist by awarding the Murdal Prize to economists who offered alternatives to neoclassical economics, and the Leonthyev Award to economists who broadened their economics horizons in 2005. In 2005, he was a member of the South Korean Presidential Advisory Policy Planning Committee, and in 2014 he was named “50 Thinkers of the Year” by The Prospect, a British political commentary magazine. In November last year, he was appointed director of the Uk’s National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) for a five-year term and was appointed as a development policy committee member of the UN Economic and Social Council for three years from 2019. The main books include: <사다리 걷어차기(Kicking away the Ladder)> <개혁의 덫> <쾌도난마 한국 경제> <그들이 말하지 않는 23가지> <나쁜 사마리아인들> <장하준의 경제학 강의(Economics The User’s Guide)> <국가의 역할(Globalization, Economic Development, and the Role of the State)> And so on.
▶Writer Ahn Hee-kyung
Funny journalist. He moved to the United States in 2002 and is writing about western civilized history and seeking alternatives. Interviews with world-class mind experts <사피엔스의 마음>rebecca Solnet, etc. <어크로스 페미니즘>A bold book with 11 world-class minds, including Jared Diamond <문명 그 길을 묻다>A bold book with seven scholars from around the world, including Nom Chomsky <하나의 생각이 세상을 바꾼다>Interviewed by William Kentridge, etc. <여기, 아티스트가 있다> books and a number of translations.